Alan,

this is a warning. Your last post contained many direct and indirect offenses in a very long post. I had to edit your post to have it somehow unoffensive without destroying your arguments. However, if you keep posting that way, I will ban you.

Regards,

Ralph

Webmaster

Regarding testimony of Jane Carolyn Wester, people will continue to trivialize the "timeline" as to minutes, seconds, how late was it really when she got that call ignoring the obvious which was that she was told that a Secret Service agent was there asking the question about whether the President had been brought in. Again there were NO Secret Service agents anywhere in Dallas that day except those in the motorcade, period. That is an indisputable fact. So.....who was the man asking before the fact about the President??

BTW I have been to Dealey Plaza. Lone gunman theorists point out the fact of how small an area it is in reality to how it looks in two dimensional photos, and how Oswald didn't have so far to shoot after all. Fine, then one must also conclude that all those witnesses were much closer upon the scene also, making their eyewitness accounts even more credible. I can tell you that you can see right through that picket fence, the boards in it are spaced rather far apart. The eyewitnesses told the correct story and any that changed theirs did so because of threats and intimidation.

Jon wrote: Look for "Ballistics Findings in the John F Kennedy Autopsy Photographs".

I finally found the photograph allegedly showing a .45 caliber slug lying in the grass near the manhole cover along Elm Street.

First of all no such bullet was EVER entered into evidence. If Roger Craig is the only source for this bullet's recovery then I would seriously do some more checking, since much of Craig's testimony of the events of that day have already been proven to be either innocently made up, unintentionally inaccurate, or just plain lies. Based on his Warren Commission testimony it is clear that Craig was lying when he claimed a bullet was found in the grass. Here is his WC testimony concerning looking for a bullet in the grass:

Mr. BELIN. Did he [Buddy Walthers] say why he believed one of the bullets ricocheted off the south curb of Elm?

Mr. CRAIG. No; he just said that someone said that one of them had. So we checked it.

Mr. BELIN. So, you searched the south curb of Elm?

Mr. CRAIG. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Did you find anything there to indicate the ricocheted bullet?

Mr. CRAIG. No; we didn't find anything at that time. (6H265)

This single statement by Craig totally destroys any such claim of a .45 caliber bullet being found, in spite of what the Fort Worth Star telegram said in their photo caption.

Jon,

I'm going to try to address some of your claims. Some of these I have already answered.

1. Jon wrote: "Prove to me beyond a shadow of doubt that Lee Harvey Oswald did it alone with two bullets, without quoting the Warren Commission or The Assassination Committee, and I'll accept it."

You are basically saying, "Prove to me it was done but don't quote any of the evidence." The whole reason for the Warren Commission and the HSCA was to uncover the evidence, the testimony, and the forensic proof that only two bullets struck President Kennedy and that those two bullets matched Oswald and only Oswald's rifle. It is impossible to prove a case while at the same time ignoring all of the evidence.

2. Jon wrote: "Linda, thank you for your input up to this point. I would not have known about the call to the front desk nurse before Kennedy was even shot if not for you."

This is historically inaccurate. No such phone took place. If Linda is telling you it did she is incorrect. RN Wester said that she received a phonecall "around noon" then she changed it to "noontime" then she clarified to the interviewer that she "wasn't sure of the time." If Linda is telling you that a Secret Service agent called Parkland PRIOR to Kennedy being shot she needs to review Nurse Wester's testimony more carefully--I did. She said it was simply sometime around noon and then made a point of explaining she didn't know the time. Clearly in the hub-bub of the emergency room and confusion following the arrival of the President and Governor she became confused about the exact time and only remembered that the events occurred around noon-time.

3. Jon wrote: "No one has yet given HARD evidence placing Oswald in the 6th floor window. Even Dallas PD admitted they could not place him on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting. What "evidence" they have would be considered circumstantial evidence in a court of law."

Correct. If you are looking for someone standing next to Oswald while he shot, then you are right we don't have that. If you are stating that we don't have a video or a photograph of Oswald shooting then again you are right. But I certainly hope you are not implying that without these levels of evidence we have no idea who fired the weapon. Is it really implying that unless someone photgraphs you comitting a crime then you are free to go? The police have been solving crimes and catching bad guys for hundreds of years for committing crimes that NO ONE saw them commit. First, Oswald stated he was on the 1st floor at the time of the assassination, yet TSBD employees who wer KNOW were there all testified that none of them saw Oswald. Right there we have Oswald lying about his location at the time of the assassination. Why wouldn't someone as politically astute and aware of the political climate of Dallas have been outside watching the President of the United States drive by. And where WAS he by the way? Second, we have a rifle matched to Oswald by finger prints, a handwritten mail order form, and clothing fibers trapped in the metal butt plate (which matched a shirt belonging to Oswald) found on the 6th floor where Oswald clip board was later found with no orders filled out for 11/22/63. Third, we have Oswald's palm prints on boxes located at the very window from which Brennan said he witnessed the assassin firing the third shot. And while Brennan's description wasn't 100% accurate he DID accurate tell police approximate height weight, hair color, race, lack of facial hair, etc...For someone that conspiracy lovers claim didn't see Oswald he was pretty accurate in describing someone he allegedly never saw wasn't he? Also please keep in mind that if it wasn't Oswald firing from that window then who was it and how did they get out of the building unseen? Also why didn't they leave behind any finger- or palm-prints? Also what did they do with THEIR weapon? Or is it implying that this person stole Oswald's rifle prior to the assassination and used it to frame Oswald? In which case, why didn't Oswald simply tell the police, "Yes I owned that rifle but someone stole it from the Paine's garage a couple of days ago."

4. Jon wrote: "I also read a report that Humes probed the back wound on JFK's body with his finger. The track was at a downward angle and Humes reached the end of the wound track with his finger."

It is incorrect and unrealistic to think that a bullet passes through a human body like a hot metal rod through a styrofoam block. A bullet doesn't simply punch a hole in the body like in cartoons so that when the wounded person takes a drink of water the water spills out on the floor. Medical experts who examine bullet wounds agree that often when a bullet passes through a body especially muscle tissue, there is residual swelling that OFTEN not occasionally, not rarely, but OFTEN causes the tissue to close shut due to the swelling. This is the most logical ans sensible explanation for Dr. Humes testimony. To believe anything else would require us to believe that a bullet was fired from a medium velocity rifle, like Oswald's MC rifle, and entered a human back, not striking any bone or metal parts of the clothing, and yet didn't have the velocity to pass deeper than an inch or two. Besides, what happened to this bullet then? Remember that no bullet was found by Humes, no intact bullet was recovered from the back seat of the limousine, and none were found at Parkland Hospital. So where did it go? Also please keep in mind that all fibers on the FRONT of Kennedy's clothing were pushed OUTWARD. If the bullet didn't pass through Kennedy's body, which bullet was it that caused the clothing to be pushed outward? And where was THAT bullet's entrance wound?

Jon,

You made the claim that duplicating Oswald's shooting has never been done in many attempts. That is simply an incorrect statement. If you want to see some of the best reenactments I suggest you check out the following:

"The American Assassins" (1975) A CBS News documentary in which more than one marksman duplicated Oswald's speed and his accuracy using the 5.6 second time frame. Of course since the HSCA investigation we now know this time frame was incorrect when the Warren Commission reached its original conclusion in 1964. We know now that Oswald fired the first shot at about framr 160 and the last shot was fired at frame 312, giving oswald 8.4 seconds to fire three shots with 66% accuracy NOT the original incorrect estimate of 5.6 seconds.

also Oswald's feat was duplicated and better in the following:

"Unsolved History: JFK Conspiracy"

(http://store.discovery.com/detail.php?p=84934)

This Discovery Channel documentary shows beyond any reasonble doubt that Oswald's shooting skills were MORE than enough to carry out the assassination. Please Jon keep in mind that you are incorrect when you portray Oswald as a mediocre marksman. This is not historically accurate. When Oswald entered the Marines and was showing off his marksmanship abilities he scored the second-highest rank possible in the United States Marines (a military group that prides itself on its marksmanship.) In fact Oswald practice range scores nearly duplicated the distance he fired at the President on November 22nd and he scored well above average even for a Marine. For a Marine he was above average but compared to an ordinary citizen like you and me he was an expert shot.

also Oswald's feat was duplicated yet AGAIN by a different marksman in another Discovery Channel documentary titled:

Unsolved History: Beyond the Magic Bullet. (http://store.discovery.com/detail.php?p=84933)

This Discovery Channel documentary not only duplicates Oswald firing speed and accuracy but proves beyond any and ALL doubt that the single bullet conclusion is not only possible it is the ONLY explanation that agrees with the actual evidence in this murder.

I will be interested to read your comments after viewing these specials (all of which are available in installments on Youtube I'm sure.)

Just went back to verify something in the Gary Mack Target Car series.

A rifle "exactly like" the one used by Oswald was used in the third shot.

Problem: The weapon used in this experiment was OBVIOUSLY in much better condition than the one recovered from the 6th floor in 63. They are also using a much better scope. The vehicle is not moving. The expert marksman does not have to space three shots into a short 6 - 8 seconds while using the bolt to chamber the three rounds

Duplicate a moving target and firing three rounds (1, pause, 2/3), with a weapon in the same condition, with the same scope and let's see this marksman (I don't doubt his credentials), hit the upper back with shot #1 and the head with shot #3.

Problem: The viable position at the end of the over pass is dismissed out of hand because there were "railroad workers present on the bridge" visible in a film. Bear with me here, but could those "railroad workers" have actually been a sniper and a spotter? All attention would be on the motorcade by other spectators.

Anyway. As I said in the first post a lot of good, highly technical stuff was used in this series, but the main issue was not addressed. Could anyone pull off the three shots, from the Carcano rifle (using the actual recovered rifle) in the allotted time, using the ammunition recovered, with any accuracy?

This series did answer two questions I have been asking; 1) Was there blood and brain matter on the Connelly's? Yes. 2) The Grassy knoll shot being the wrong angle? Yes it is. The series plainly shows that this shot would have blown a significant hole in the left side of the skull.

The series marksman stated that he had a shot from the front, but "through the windshield". If you accept the "hole in the windshield" testimony, why would this be discounted? He also stated that the end of the over pass shot was very viable, even getting a bit pushy about it with Gary Mack. Why wasn't this shot at least tested?

100% solved???? NO!

Please review the following:

1) "Destroying the Single Bullet Theory" Parts 1-5

2) "The Discovery Channel Scam" bobharris77

3) Way Beyond "Beyond The Magic Bullet" vydeoynkhorne

4) "JFK: Inside The Target Car" Parts 1-5 zysiex

I will only comment on #4. Only the final shot is explored. The weapon used is a guess. The ammunition used is a guess. The placement of the "Jackie Kennedy" actor is not correct for the "grassy knoll" shot. Gary Mack, who in early years was a conspiracy guy, is working over time to prove the lone nut/single bullet theory.

Way too much assumption is used in this documentary. It does use a lot of modern technology to get close to exact duplication.

Alan,

Finally found the probable source of the neck wound "photo" I saw.

Search for "The Back Wound" GJJdude is the source listed. Also the same video is on You Tube.

During this sequence they show a brief shot of the front of the neck with the small "entrance" wound. It is not explained if this is a "doctored" shot to illustrate or real.

For now I will side with the illustration explanation.

I'm trying to keep to one subject in each post.

I also read a report that Humes probed the back wound on JFK's body with his finger. The track was at a downward angle and Humes reached the end of the wound track with his finger.

A through and through shot that exited the neck? Not if Humes hit bottom.

Alan, I will go back and get the exact site for you.

I spent some time tracking down the "bullet in the grass" photo sequence and got stopped at the famous Altgens photo showing the DSBD in the background.

What stopped me was what the driver and SS agent in the front seat were doing when you can see the President is already reacting to the shot in the neck.

They are staring straight forward and are positioned as far as they can get towards the doors of the car (as far outwards as possible). As if they were trying to stay out of the line of fire from rear shots.

The agents on the car right behind have already reacted to the shot by looking back towards the DSBD/Daltex buildings.

At this point the SS agent in the front passenger seat should be climbing over Connelly to cover the President. Instead he's staring out the windshield as far to the right as he can get.

At this point the driver should have his foot to the floor on the gas pedal. Instead he has his foot on the brake and is as far to his left as he can get.

Until Kennedy is fatally hit in the head, the driver does not hit the gas, and the SS passenger has still not moved to cover the President.

Totally against SS Standard Operating Procedure.

PJW,

As a sniper I would value your input.

Have you visited the DSBD? Have you seen or experienced the "snipers nest"?

Do you have experience/knowledge of the Carcano rifle?

Could a mediocre Marksman fire a bolt action rifle in the sequence considered the sequence of shots that day and hit a moving target with any type of accuracy?

Does a human body move towards the shooter when hit by a rifle shot?

Does blood spray in the direction of the shooter?

If you view the Zapruder film showing Jackie leaning in front of JFK when the fatal head shot hits, would she show evidence of blood splatter on her upper torso if the shot was from the rear?

Thanks

Alan,

Search for JFK Autopsy Photos.

Look for "Ballistics Findings in the John F Kennedy Autopsy Photographs".

Bullet in grass.

As to people recanting their original eyewitness reports, I wonder why so many people reported things one way and after a period of time the "official" story line was adhered to so tenaciously.

No one has yet given HARD evidence placing Oswald in the 6th floor window. Even Dallas PD admitted they could not place him on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting. What "evidence" they have would be considered circumstantial evidence in a court of law.

The witness (Brennan) who saw "a man" in the 6th floor window did not say it was Oswald until much later.

Here's the bottom line. Set up a reenactment using the exact Presidential Limo, the exact same weapon, fired by a mediocre marksman, using exact same ammunition, at ballistics dummies traveling on Elm Street, and prove the one bullet theory. It's NEVER been done. It's NEVER been duplicated in any reenactment.

Show me a film/video of someone duplicating what Oswald supposedly did that day and I might buy in. Don't give me the FBI reenactment. It wasn't the same car. No shots were fired. Don't give me shots fired into melons. Show me someone in the 6th floor window duplicating the shot sequence. You can't. It was never done because it would prove the Warren Commission was a fraud. It will never be allowed to be done for the same reason.

So, I guess we will never convince each other that our view is correct.

Olivia,

As I've stated in other entries, I do not buy in to some of the wild conspiracy theories that are out there. I do believe that there are way too many questions and time line discrepancies, to accept the "one man, one bullet" solution.

It has been cited that a witness saw Oswald in the 6th floor window (Brennan). His statement actually says he "saw a man in the window". He was later shown Oswald in a line up in which Oswald was the only man resembling the official description. Hard not to pick Oswald out when he is the only choice that fits.

It has been cited that witnesses saw Oswald shot Tippet. The witnesses saw "a man" shoot Tippet that closely resembled the "official description". The timing of Oswald at his rooming house, then at Tippets shooting, then at the theater is also a bit of a stretch. Oswald would have had to be a sprinter to get from point A to B to C in the Warren Commission timing.

Where did this "official description" come from? No one seeing "a man" in the 6th floor window could see height and weight. Nor could they without a doubt tell hair color. You could see light skin color and light hair color, but not height and weight. So who gave the Police the description.

See my response to Linda about reenactments. Also, look at all the pictures of Oswald's chin. Notice that his chin is twice as wide in the "backyard photos" as it is in any other picture. There are also height and length of gun issues with these pictures. The body posture does not match the flat ground.

As gruesome as it is to watch, the Zapruder film is key. It is accepted that the fatal shots came almost simultaneously. Anyone who has experience in combat, or police work can tell you that when someone is shot they do not move towards the direction the bullet came from. A human body reacts to being hit at 100's of MPH by moving away from the shooter.

Watch the many film sequences on line. JFK's head begins to move forward (shot from rear), then violently to the rear (shot from front, shorter range, higher velocity). The blood spray and other material from these shots all fly to the rear (shot from front). There is no spray on Jackie, nor the Connelly's, who would have spray evidence if the shot was from the rear. Also, pictures of the limo seem to show blood only where JFK would have bled out on Jackies lap.

These questions and many, many more lead me to believe that there was more than one shooter (good assassination technique to ensure success) and that Oswald was more then likely a patsy. Dallas PD admitted they could not place Oswald in the 6th floor window at the time of the shooting beyond a shadow of doubt. In a court of law the "evidence" they had would be considered circumstantial. Not enough to convict.

Those are some of what convinces me there was a "conspiracy" ( a group of men who wanted JFK removed), and a cover up to convince the people of the U.S. that it was one man and one bullet, is the more likely scenario.

Jon

Linda,

I understand your decision to not continue debating this issue. It is frustrating to continue to present evidence that supports the fact that there are many, many, many questions that are not answered, and will never be answered by the Warren Commission, the Assassination Committee, and other Government agencies.

If all you can do is parrot the "official" dialog, then you have blinded yourself.

The discrepancies, questionable investigation techniques, and failure to take into account eye witness testimony is proof that the circumstances surrounding the assassination of JFK need to be investigated by an unbiased group with full access to ALL documentation, from ALL agencies.

No matter who was behind the scenes, there are way too many questions unanswered to accept the "party line".

I will throw this out there again. Prove to me beyond a shadow of doubt that Lee Harvey Oswald did it alone with two bullets, without quoting the Warren Commission or The Assassination Committee, and I'll accept it.

Put a minimally trained Marksman, with an exact duplicate weapon, in the sixth floor window. Drive the Presidential limo down Elm Street with the ballistic dummies on board in the exact positions, and duplicate the shots (1-pause-2/3).

This has never been done. The official reenactments were not done this way. They used a different car, put expert FBI marksmen in the window, used different weapons, and did NOT actually fire any shots.

Based on this one piece of evidence, that this experiment has never been done, the whole theory on which the Warren Commission is conclusion is based can be put into question.

Don't just tell me it was done. Give me the specifics on where I can view the film/video tape of this exact reenactment.

Anyway..... Linda, thank you for your input up to this point. I would not have known about the call to the front desk nurse before Kennedy was even shot if not for you.

Jon

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable".

John F. Kennedy

Just two simple facts and I am done with this. Getting bogged down in endless trivia and smoke and mirrors will never solve this crime. It is obvious that the powers that be do not want the crime to be solved. If they did, the justice department would have done something by now and they have done nothing. Nothing.

After finding evidence of a probable conspiracy and that evidence was NOT based solely on acoustics.

1. You have only to watch the Zapruder film to see that Kennedy is struck in the back BEFORE Connally ever even turns around. If the bullet had hit them both Connally would not have had the time to turn completely around in his seat. He would have collapsed immediately when Kennedy grabs his throat.

2. I don't know why people don't get this, practically no defect in the magic bullet, yet lots of metal fragments in Connally both removed and not removed. Where did those fragments come from? No blood or tissue on the bullet that went through BOTH men? Not one drop.

People will see what they want to see and believe what they want to believe. Your government loves to divide and conquer, they've been doing it successfully for centuries.

This country will continue its already steep decline in power both economically and politically. You cannot continue to prop up a nation trillions of dollars in debt with a staggering trade deficit and leaders that have stolen us blind, sold out our country and our jobs for the almighty dollar, bankrupted the treasury with illegal wars based on lies, handed the banking thieves OUR money to turn around and rob us again, and declared the likes of Sarah Palin fit to be our Vice President. No matter how many times you wrap yourself up in the flag and talk about "freedom", the fact remains that we are less free than some third world countries.

JFK, whether you love him or hate him, recognized most of the things that I mentioned above that were happening some 50 years ago, and he called their hands on it and began to make moves to rid our great country of this scourge.

To sit there and say that some lone crazed nut who by the way DENIES killing the President had the power to turn the course of history in this country just insults any honor that we ever had.

JFK paid the ultimate price for his patriotism. He called on all of us to make sacrifices to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution. We have done a piss poor job of it and our pathetic leaders have led the way on our watch.

By continuing to not call for accountability at the highest levels we are asking for more of the same and that is just exactly what we have gotten and will continue to get. I include every President including Obama. They have been completely derilict.

Democracy is a VERB not a NOUN. Alot of people don't get that. We have brave men and women getting blown to bits and maimed daily to defend a nation that has abandoned them. War isn't about honor anymore, it is about profit and nothing more.

What happens to us now will not be a reflection of our leaders, it will be a reflection of US and what WE are made of. I don't intend to see my children and grandchildren enter into serfdom, but we are heading in that direction very rapidly. Our standard of living is declining with no end in sight.

I used to be a proud American, thinking that my country could do not wrong and would never lie to me. It has been a hard lesson in reality.

There is one thing and one thing only left to do and that is to take our country back. The only way that we can do that is to rid ourselves of the people AND the institutions that have stolen it from us. I wholeheartedly include the media as one of those institutions. They fell into lockstep after the Kennedy assassination, and have been that way since. I hold no hope for them. We need a people's coup and we need it now.

Hey Jon.

My class is doing a debate on weather the JFK assassination was a conspiracy through the government or if Oswald had done the shooting himself, which leads to the Magic Bullet Theory.

In my opinion, I think it was a Conspiracy only because, the fact that a bullet going every which way; in and out of two bodies just seems unreal.

Which do you think it was??

And why?

Jon, I ran a search of JFK autopsy photos and NO site titled JFK Fact or Fiction came up. I went ten pages into a Google search and nothing matching your mentioned site. You are going to have to provide the actual site so that I can see thie alleged photograph of a bullet being found. I am well aware of the photographs taken by Jim Murray of Buddy Walthers lighting a cigarette while an unidentified man in a gray suit (note UNIDENTIFIED) man probed the grass with his left hand. Standing nearby was DPD Officer Foster who stated that they found what he thought was "where one shot had hit the turf there at that location." However later when Foster was asked if he observed the unidentified man "...picking up a bullet and putting it in his pocket or anything like that," Foster clarified his earlier statement and reslied, "No, sir."

The photgrapher was later interviewed about what HE saw. He stated that the grass appeared to have been turned up here and there with a woman's high heels. He stated, "I certainly didn't see any bullets or anything."

A second photographer took a picture at virtually the same time Jim Murray did, his name was William Allen. He agreed with Murray that no bullet was found. Allen was standing a few feet from the men probing the grass and at no time did he hear anyone state, "Hey, I've found a bullet. Or, here's a bullet." He stated that would have certainly photographed such an event taking place since it would have been a major news story, but nothing of the kind happened.

In the 1990s researcher Mark Oakes claimed the unidentified man was FBI agent Robert M. Barrett. However Barrett in later interviews unequivocally denied it was him stating that he always wore glasses at that time in his life and the man in the photgraph was not wearing any. Also Barrett stated that he never walked across Elm Street after the assassination but was on the TSBD side of Elm the entire time.

So what you are referring is conspiracy-oriented researchers misinterpreting an innocent photograph of men examining the grass for evidence but finding none.

When you find the website referred to I will gladly examine the photgraphs and see the reasons they offer for concluding a bullet was recovered.

Take a look a the plaza trianglated fire One in the back one from the right front and one from the left front I was a sniper I know its how it works.

On the single bullit ,I don't think there is a person on this planet that thinks that was anything close to being true.on the subject of there being three shooters that is the way for all sanctioned hits

The government did'nt like the way JFK was giving the people what they wanted. So the FBI and CIA got there little heads together and took him out

the same with Robert and that kept Teddy from running.

It also with the speed that rummers And LBJ traveled at.The cover up was simple.Try reading between the lines of the warren report it was a white washing of the whole thing,There is'nt a thing in it that rings true,You would have to be a real bone head to belive the single bullit ,Fallow the path in the book HIGH TREASON 2 Lots of great photos..................