Mr. Senator.

I would say it may have been--I would say approximately within a year or approximately about a year; I'm not sure.

Mr. Hubert.

You did not know him prior to moving to Dallas?

Mr. Senator.

Oh, no; I had never heard of Jack Ruby before in my life.

Mr. Hubert.

You think it would be somewhere in 1955 that you first met him?

Mr. Senator.

I would even say in 1955 or early 1956. I mean give or take a few.

Mr. Hubert.

Tell us the circumstances under which you met him.

Mr. Senator.

How I met him?

Mr. Hubert.

Yes.

Mr. Senator.

I was with a friend of mine one day. We went over to--I am certain you heard of the Vegas Club in Dallas?

Mr. Hubert.

Yes.
Mr. SENATOR: That is where, you know--at that time this is all Jack Ruby had was the Vegas Club and this is where I met him casually. Never seen him before, and I was introduced to Jack Ruby like I guess anybody else walked in, Jack Ruby.

Mr. Hubert.

All right; now, starting from then, would you tell us how your friendship or acquaintance developed?

Mr. Senator.

I have seen Jack; I have met Jack here or there, you know; it can be in a restaurant or whatever it might be or a luncheonette or something like that. I have met him many times. I have seen him, "Hi, George"; "Hi, Jack, how are you?"

Mr. Hubert.

Did you go to the Vegas Club frequently after that first meeting?

Mr. Senator.

Oh, no; very, very seldom, very seldom, and the only time that I really got close to Jack was about 2 years ago. Always previous to that it has always been, "Jack, how are you?" wherever I met him; having coffee, he always
offered to buy me something to eat.

Mr. Hubert.

You describe your relationship with Jack up to 2 years ago as casual?

Mr. Senator.

Strictly casual, like I'd meet any other friend anywhere else.

Mr. Hubert.

It could hardly be called friendship as it ultimately developed, in any case.

Mr. Senator.

Yes; I respected him; he respected me. We talked nice.

Mr. Hubert.

You did not go to the Vegas very much?

Mr. Senator.

No; I didn't go to the Vegas very much.

Mr. Hubert.

At the time you indicated that there was a change in that casual relationship to something else 2 years ago.

Mr. Senator.

Yes.

Mr. Hubert.

Can you tell us what brought that about?

Mr. Senator.

Yes.
(Brief recess.)

Mr. Hubert.

Mr. Senator, we have had about a 10-minute recess. You understand, of course, that we are continuing this deposition by the same authority and under the same conditions which I stated to you at the very beginning of it and further that you are under the same oath that you were prior to the recess.
Is that agreeable with you? You understand that?

Mr. Senator.

I can't lie because I didn't bring a lawyer with me.

Mr. Hubert.

What?

Mr. Senator.

I said I am not lying because I didn't bring a lawyer with me.

Mr. Hubert.

So that the record may be clear on the point, I want to see if I understand your last remark. Does it indicate that you wish to have a lawyer?

Mr. Senator.

No.

Mr. Hubert.

I just wanted to get it straight.

Mr. Senator.

I say that I didn't come here to lie; so I don't need a lawyer.

Mr. Hubert.

All right, now we are at the point about 2 years ago when a casual relationship which you have described with Ruby changed into something else. Why don't you just tell us about that in your own words?

Mr. Senator.

All right. I mentioned before Volume Sales. When I got through with Volume Sales I was unemployed again, and I used to Jump up to Jack's place, his other place, which is the Carousel previous to that there was