Do you know Jack Ruby at all, or did you know?
Captain FRITZ. Did I know him before; no, sir, I did not. I never knew him before, to the best of my knowledge. That is the first time I ever saw him, when he was arrested. In fact, when the shooting happened, I thought some officer had lost his reasoning and shot that man, because of so many officers being down there.
And I asked one of the officers quickly if that was an officer that shot him, and he said it was "Jack Ruby." And I said, "Who is Jack Ruby? And he said, "He owns a club downtown."

Mr. Hubert.

What officer was that?
Captain FRITZ. I don't know, some of my officers.

Mr. Hubert.

Of course you have seen pictures?
Captain FRITZ. Several of the officers knew him, but I didn't know him.

Mr. Hubert.

You have seen pictures of Ruby and perhaps you have seen him in person since?
Captain FRITZ. Oh, yes; I have questioned him since then.

Mr. Hubert.

Can you search your memory and tell us whether you saw that same person in and about the police department, particularly the third floor, on the 22d and 23d?
Captain FRITZ. No, sir; I did not. I was very busy at that time. It is possible I could have seen him. If I did, I woudn't have known him, because there was 200 or 300 people I didn't know.
There was a mob scene, a terrible thing, and I would have uniformed officers help me to get from my office to the chief's office, to the elevator, and back, to get through the crowd, so he could have been in that crowd and I wouldn't know it. I have heard since, he was in the crowd, and he probably was. I wouldn't have known. I would have thought he was another one of those men from the same crowd.

Mr. Hubert.

Did you have anything to do with the planning of the exact transfer of Oswald to the county jail?
Captain FRITZ. I can't say that there was a meeting of any kind planning the transfer, but if there was, I wasn't there. At the time of the transfer, when the chief told me that an armored money truck had been, provided to transfer him, I know it was a surprise to me, because I had never heard of that. I had never heard of that before, and I told the chief I didn't think it was a good thing to try to move him in a money wagon, because we don't know the driver or anything about the wagon, and it would be clumsy and awkward, and I didn't think it was a good idea at all.
I had nothing to do with the setting up of the plan, until my talk with the chief just before the transfer, nor with the setting up of the security in the basement. None of that comes under my heading.

Mr. Hubert.

When did you become aware that it would be the responsibility of the Dallas Police Department rather than the sheriff's office to transfer Oswald?
Captain FRITZ. The day before the transfer.

Mr. Hubert.

You mean on Saturday?
Captain FRITZ. That would have been on Saturday,. I believe. I don't want to be too positive about an hour or time, but in one of my conversations with the chief, I asked him if the sheriff intended to transfer him or if we would transfer him, and he told me that he had been talking to the sheriff and we would transfer him.

Mr. Hubert.

You are pretty sure that would have been on Saturday and not Sunday morning?
Captain FRITZ. No, sir; it wouldn't have been on Sunday morning. It would have been before Sunday morning, because some reference was made about the time of transfer.

Mr. Hubert.

What reference was made about the time of transfer?
Captain FRITZ. Well, in one of my conversations with the chief, you will see from my testimony, the chief asked me about transferring him at 4 o'clock the

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